All over the place

[brembo]

Well folks!! I’m currently halfway round my favourite Highland Blast route in my Front Wheel Drive RS, just stopped for a fag and to make sure I’ve still got tread on my front tyres!! Haha!! Will post up my findings when I get home…. VERY interesting indeed!! ?.

Cheers, Marc.

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MY/17, F/White, Forged Black Wheels, Recaro Shell Seats, Diamas SiRamik Glasscoat, H&R Anti-Roll Bars/15mm Spacers, EBC Turbo Brake Discs all round/Yellowstuff Brake Pads, Mountune Air Intake/Recirc Valve/SSC/Blue Turbo Hose Kit and Hard Pipe/Uprated Springs/Short Shifter/Rear Motor Mount/Crank Breather Plate, ETS Intercooler, Milltek 100 Cell Cat, Remus Wolf Inside Exhaust, Litchfield Stage 2 map via Cobb Accessport V3, DSC unit.

[indyrs]

@71-bda, how are you doing matey – long time indeed!
Yep, I was at the meet, we actually took up quite a few car parking spaces this time round which was nice to see, not the usual back row of spaces in the car park… It was a good turnout, I took a handful of snaps, but not sure how to upload, lol!! Should be at the next one if it is dry and hope to see you then!

Yep, the car has done 1050miles now so finally got the opportunity to open up the RS in doing so I then got this darting/weaving drive effect that others (including yourself) have highlighted both on the way back home from the meet and taking my friends out for a spirited test drive.

@johnybigarms – apologies, I was getting mixed up with AYC/S-AYC, thinking it was similar concept to the RS’s setup…

[brembo]

Afternoon all!!

Well, some facts first….. 2017 RS, Michelin PS4S’s on front set at 41 psi, car running at approx 410BHP, nice sunny afternoon on dry roads with OAT varying between 20’C and 23’C.

RDU disabled using COBB ACCESSPORT…

Then headed out for a blast in my Front Wheel Drive RS, along my favourite route, this is a 73 mile round trip. The roads are all fairly fast with countless undulations, camber changes, long straights, long sweeping bends, slower tight bends, dips, bumps, uneven road surfaces etc…..

Sport mode selected as always. The first thing I notice is that the RS is bloody fierce with only Front Wheel Drive, hit the throttle pedal in 2nd gear and the front wheels just light up even with TC still on, so feeding the throttle in is a must. Heading up a slight incline in 3rd gear at 60mph and floor it to overtake and again the front wheels light up and speedo rockets round to 90mph!! Savage but great crack, haha!! ??.

I instantly notice that crossing the white lines is no longer a RISKY business!! Yeah, it tugs a bit but what do you expect with 410BHP through the front wheels. The further I go the more I’m noticing that the severe veering feeling is NOT there!! The car actually feels pretty good. The control you have over the front end under hard acceleration is so much more normal feeling if that makes sense. What you have lost is what sets the RS apart from any other car I’ve driven and that’s the AWESOME grip going round the bends!! Losing that rear end drive makes a massive difference!!

I then turned the ESP off…. an absolute NO NO!! The car was bordering on UNCONTROLLABLE!!

I then put the ESP back on and turned the TC off…. it drives ok but no where near enough grip at the front under hard acceleration!!

The best setting was Sport Mode with all driver aids still ON, but she was still a bit of a handful, BUT no veering felt at all!! When you are fighting with the steering it’s the power you’re grappling with in a far more natural way and it actually felt quite good!!

73 miles done and NO sketchy pant soiling moments at all!!

I would encourage anybody else who has this veering issues and a COBB ACCESSPORT to turn off the RDU and go for a spirited drive!! I think you’ll be quite amazed at the results and I’d be intrigued to hear the thoughts of others??

So, is it due to the fact that the rear end is oversped?? Or because the power is put to either of the rear wheels independently?? Can the software be altered?? So many questions??

What I could add, is that when I got my PDC turned off it coincided with me fitting new tyres to the front which will have brought the speed of the front and rear axles closer together. Now as my front tyres are wearing down again the speed of the rear increases that wee bit more…. could this be why my veering feeling seems to be coming back over time?? It makes sense doesn’t it!!

Anyway, that’s my input!! What you guys think??

Cheers, Marc.

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MY/17, F/White, Forged Black Wheels, Recaro Shell Seats, Diamas SiRamik Glasscoat, H&R Anti-Roll Bars/15mm Spacers, EBC Turbo Brake Discs all round/Yellowstuff Brake Pads, Mountune Air Intake/Recirc Valve/SSC/Blue Turbo Hose Kit and Hard Pipe/Uprated Springs/Short Shifter/Rear Motor Mount/Crank Breather Plate, ETS Intercooler, Milltek 100 Cell Cat, Remus Wolf Inside Exhaust, Litchfield Stage 2 map via Cobb Accessport V3, DSC unit.

[outtadrally]

I’m going to say something controversial as I don’t see the point in disabling the awd.

I just always drive mine in track mode with hard suspension turned off and hold traction control off. Veering  steering isn’t a problem then. Or is everyone afraid they are going to die these days if they drive a car with the traction control/esp on?

Lastly, I run my tyres at 32psi which seems very low compared to everyone else but I’m usually on my own in the car and don’t worry about wear. It’s very very wet over here so I run lower pressures to compensate and have since I started driving. We usually run the escort rally cars on 25-26 depending on wet/dry so I don’t buy into this whole 43psi. I know the focus is heavy but it’s not that heavy!

VS only seems to be a problem if in normal or sport mode.

I’m sure lots of people will disagree with the above and by the sounds of it every car and owner has different feelings on what causes it and how they experience it. But removing the awd seems like an awful drastic measure. Might as well just be driving a modified ST.

 

 

[robroy]

@brembo

Well done mate for this I will give it a go myself and see what happens,  I had a spirited drive tonight on a b road , quite worrying at speed I noticed even when I was slowing down from speed it was all over the place ……not good .

Will check my tire pressures tomorrow too

[brembo]

@outtadrally

Evening mate!! I appreciate your input, I’ve driven in Track mode before but not with ESP off, I’ll give it a go tomorrow and see how it feels.

Just to be clear, I’ve no intention in driving the RS again with the RDU disabled, it was purely a test to see if the veering sensation disappears, which it seemed to.

Cheers, Marc.

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MY/17, F/White, Forged Black Wheels, Recaro Shell Seats, Diamas SiRamik Glasscoat, H&R Anti-Roll Bars/15mm Spacers, EBC Turbo Brake Discs all round/Yellowstuff Brake Pads, Mountune Air Intake/Recirc Valve/SSC/Blue Turbo Hose Kit and Hard Pipe/Uprated Springs/Short Shifter/Rear Motor Mount/Crank Breather Plate, ETS Intercooler, Milltek 100 Cell Cat, Remus Wolf Inside Exhaust, Litchfield Stage 2 map via Cobb Accessport V3, DSC unit.

[brembo]

@robroy

Evening mate!! Yeah, give it a go. Interested to hear what you think!! ?.

Cheers, Marc.

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MY/17, F/White, Forged Black Wheels, Recaro Shell Seats, Diamas SiRamik Glasscoat, H&R Anti-Roll Bars/15mm Spacers, EBC Turbo Brake Discs all round/Yellowstuff Brake Pads, Mountune Air Intake/Recirc Valve/SSC/Blue Turbo Hose Kit and Hard Pipe/Uprated Springs/Short Shifter/Rear Motor Mount/Crank Breather Plate, ETS Intercooler, Milltek 100 Cell Cat, Remus Wolf Inside Exhaust, Litchfield Stage 2 map via Cobb Accessport V3, DSC unit.

[johnybigarms]

Brembo, that’s a brilliant road test and fantastic information, it’s kinda what I expected, that the 2WD RS is like any other high powered front wheel drive car, easily overwhelmed grip, torque steer, but predictable, so in conclusion, we could say confidently, it’s the rear wheels causing the veering steering, but the rear wheels could only effect the steering if one rear wheel is driving harder than the other, both rear wheels driving at the same speed or slightly faster than the front (over-sped) wouldn’t pull the car left and right, only straight ahead, so, if some traction is lost at the rear from say just one wheel, momentarily, the electronics would sense that and try to adjust the balance of power, that’s done by either applying a braking force to the wheel that’s losing traction, or applying more power to the wheel that’s got full traction, this is where the rear axle clutch packs come into play, they engage and disengage in an instant, on/off style, binary, it could be the sudden switching of power between the rear wheels that tugs the car into oscillation, left or right, the veering steering effect is usually noticed at full throttle manoeuvres, on uneven road surfaces or crossing high cambers, that’s also the most likely time to cause some traction loss from just one rear wheel, which is sensed and the electronics attempt to correct it, it has two choices to balance the loss of traction, it either adds more power to the wheel with good traction, via the rear clutch packs, or applies the brakes to the wheel that’s lost traction, I think it’s this clever but sudden shift in power distribution that’s also creating the imbalance.

So this theory may explain why both PDC switched off (Ford dealer only)and Traction control switched fully off (ESC button held down for 5 seconds) helps reduce the frequency of the problem, PDC applies the brakes in an attempt to straighten a wandering car caused by side winds, so turning it off stops the electronic interference, ESC fully off allows the wheels to spin without electronic interference, Track mode is also designed to allow greater rear slippage without ESC interference, it’s making some sense?

So it’s either sudden rear clutch pack adjustments or ESC rear braking application that’s at fault, thoughts anyone.

 

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[jonyscam]

@bigarms agreed again

Brembo was brave, but his bravery also this help with the theory. For those looking to reduce VS they see, I would suggest leaving the car settings “as delivered” and trying the track option or a variation of the controllable options the driver has. I would also suggest that we need someone to be brave and move to another tyre. This for me is where the gains are to be made, as whilst the 4s is grippy i do find it very firm and noisy.

The Conti might be softer and more forgiving, if it is then you might get a more compliant drive under load but noting that in this scenario the tyres might also need changing more frequently. A small price to pay….

I am not worrying VS because I do not see it largely and agree with @bigarms  that this is part of the RS DNA. I will be changing the 4s tyres because i think there are better out there, in my humble experience.

One last point, the mk1 RS i recall has terrible torque steer, its part of its DNA.

[stteb]

Ford say run front tyres at 41 psi …rear 38 psi

I Think with the low profile tyres ,thats to much air in them , if you put to much air in they  ( balloon )

so the tyres run on the middle on the tyres,  slight less psi the tyres will run with all of its tred on the road ,giving better handling .

So I am trying slightly less tyre pressure, and go down the same road , same set up , and see the difference ??

 

[stteb]

Ford say run front tyres at 41 psi …rear 38 psi

I Think with the low profile tyres ,thats to much air in them , if you put to much air in they  ( balloon )

so the tyres run on the middle on the tyres,  slight less psi the tyres will run with all of its tred on the road ,giving better handling .

So I am trying slightly less tyre pressure, and go down the same road , same set up , and see the difference ??

 

[johnybigarms]

Outtadrally, I too have been driving with Track mode selected, soft suspension and ESC fully off, and find that the best setting. having PDC switched off was an attempt to drive the RS without the hassle of turning off the ESC, PDC off does improve things, but I think the ESC fully off as well is a belt and braces cure, I always hold the steering wheel with both hands during full throttle overtakes and find any weave totally controllable, I agree the RS doesn’t need the ESC, it’s grip is so high, I haven’t managed to get a huge sideways slide regardless of how crazy I drive the car, I get small rear slides but that’s me provoking the car to do it, and love it when it happens, huge fun.

A softer compound tyre may help things, I suppose lower pressures in the Pilots offers a similar result, do you find sharp turns feel a little less secure with the side walls of the tyres not being held as tight with the 40 psi recommendation?

 

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Mountune M380 package

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[johnybigarms]

Jonyscam, your right about the DNA of the MK1, Clarkson took the piss out of it by accelerating without holding the steering wheel, it nearly turned into circles, but it’s not effected it’s status as a classic, values for mint cars are climbing massively recently, the MK3 will always be seen by the masses as a hugely capable road legal rally car esc weapon, and that’s assuring us rock solid residuals, future classic assured, not being perfect will not effect it one bit.

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JCR super low seat frames x 2

DSC Suspension Controller

 

 

[9designs]

Lower pressures made mine worse, understeer, dead feeling, lack turn in and pulled around more. Car felt heavy.

@brembro great work and feedback.

I’ve always had my thoughts on the RDU being at the heart of the problem.  I tend to think it’s possible software and hardware issues.  Your test does show just how much and often the rear is brought into play, more than I had assumed.

When you turn into a corner we know the system powers up the rear outer for sharper turn and pivot effect. How does it tell a corner from a lane change or over take, where you then straight up a split second later. I guess it can’t.

For me I think it does it when you hit the over boost, ie full chat, I assume again that triggers the RDU to get enough traction, as you proved it does need it.  So with production tolerances and assembly just how synchronised can the clutches pull in left to right?  This could explain variations from car to car we have seen now for years. Add in the software trying decide if you actually want one or both wheels powered up for a corner or a straight.

The other key experiment as others suggested is tyres, is the whole system balance or stability thrown by tyres that love to tramline.  Seems the system is on the edge of  instability and gets into feedback loops.  A software update you would hope could make it less sensitive, hopefully without spoiling the sharp response and turn in etc.

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[johnybigarms]

Now that a lot of owners cars are on their second set of tyres, it would be great if any one has feedback on driving with a change of tyres, whether the same brand  again, or a totally different brand, please share.

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Mountune M380 package

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Mountune Hard Charge Pipes

JCR super low seat frames x 2

DSC Suspension Controller

 

 

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